Bernie Sanders Saw This Coming

伯尼·桑德斯预见到了这一切

It’s hard to believe Bernie Sanders. Not because the longtime Vermont senator bears the hallmarks of a liar. Yes, he’s a career politician, but the 84-year-old progressive torchbearer counts more viral memes than scandals to his name. Rather, it’s hard to believe Bernie Sanders because, for decades, he’s told Americans that this country can radically change, while championing ideas too far afield from the status quo to really have a chance. He wants to bring billionaires to heel, for one. And implement universal, government-run health care. College tuition? If Sanders had his way, it wouldn’t even exist.

很难去相信伯尼·桑德斯（Bernie Sanders）。这并不是因为这位来自佛蒙特州的资深参议员有什么撒谎的迹象。没错，他是一位职业政客，但这位84岁的进步派旗手名下的病毒式迷因（meme）比丑闻还要多。相反，很难相信桑德斯是因为几十年来，他一直告诉美国人这个国家可以发生彻底的改变，同时又在倡导那些偏离现状太远、几乎没有实现可能性的想法。例如，他想让亿万富翁们俯首听命，并推行全民政府医疗保健。大学学费？如果按桑德斯的方式，它甚至根本就不会存在。

Things can change. I believe it, and WIRED champions it. But change that much? In this country? Really, Bernie?

事情是可以改变的。我相信这一点，《连线》（WIRED）杂志也支持这一点。但改变得如此彻底？在这个国家？真的吗，伯尼？

Sanders, though, is now hard at work adding one more big, improbable change to the pile: Since 2023, he’s been advocating for firm and decisive regulation of the AI industry. In March of this year, Sanders and his frequent collaborator, Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, proposed legislation that would halt data center construction until a series of safeguards are implemented. In June, Sanders announced the American AI Sovereign Wealth Fund Act, which would essentially tax AI’s richest companies and result in direct payments to American citizens.

然而，桑德斯现在正致力于为这一堆“不可能的改变”再添上浓墨重彩的一笔：自2023年以来，他一直主张对人工智能行业进行坚定且果断的监管。今年3月，桑德斯与他的长期合作伙伴、众议员亚历山德里娅·奥卡西奥-科尔特斯（Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez）共同提出了一项立法，旨在暂停数据中心的建设，直到实施一系列保障措施为止。6月，桑德斯宣布了《美国人工智能主权财富基金法案》（American AI Sovereign Wealth Fund Act），该法案本质上将对最富有的AI公司征税，并将收益直接支付给美国公民。

I wanted to talk to Sanders about those bills, and his perspective on AI more broadly. On a deeper level, though, I was curious about how Sanders sees the barriers to regulation—from tech oligarchs and deep-pocketed super PACs, to a federal administration happier to enrich itself via technology than actually govern it—and whether he thinks those seemingly intractable obstacles can be overcome. After a few months of haranguing, Sanders agreed to sit down, which is how I found myself in his modest DC campaign office watching the senator—thoughtful, genuine, vociferous as ever—grapple in real time with what he describes as “the most consequential, transformational technology in the history of humanity.”

我想就这些法案以及他更广泛的AI观点与桑德斯进行交谈。但在更深层次上，我很好奇桑德斯如何看待监管所面临的障碍——从科技寡头和财力雄厚的超级政治行动委员会（Super PACs），到比起实际治理更乐于通过技术中饱私囊的联邦政府——以及他是否认为这些看似棘手的障碍能够被克服。经过几个月的软磨硬泡，桑德斯终于同意接受采访。于是，我坐在他位于华盛顿特区简朴的竞选办公室里，看着这位一如既往地深思熟虑、真诚且直言不讳的参议员，实时地与他所描述的“人类历史上最具影响力和变革性的技术”进行博弈。

Sanders and I spoke on Tuesday, June 23, as the New York Democratic primary was underway. I woke up the next day, our conversation echoing in my head, to find that a coalition of democratic socialists had swept their respective elections and sent party stalwarts into an existential tailspin. A few hours later, New Jersey representative Frank Pallone, the top Democrat on the House Energy and Commerce Committee, became the most mainstream member of the party to publicly support an AI data center moratorium.

我和桑德斯于6月23日星期二进行了交谈，当时纽约民主党初选正在进行中。第二天醒来，我们的谈话内容还在脑海中回荡，我发现一个民主社会主义者联盟在各自的选举中大获全胜，让党内大佬们陷入了生存危机。几个小时后，众议院能源和商业委员会的民主党领袖、新泽西州众议员弗兰克·帕隆（Frank Pallone）成为该党公开支持暂停AI数据中心建设的最主流成员。

The uber-wealthy elites aren’t going away anytime soon. Neither is the president or his band of barely competent cronies. In this country, the tangled roots of power—become a trillionaire, buy an election, build that damn data center—run deep. But the anger of an American majority, across party lines, might soon run deeper. They’re fighting data centers at town halls across the country. Turning out by the millions at nationwide protests. And in New York and across the country, they’re spurning establishment candidates at the polls.

超级富豪精英们不会很快消失。总统和他那群能力平平的亲信也不会。在这个国家，权力的纠葛根深蒂固——成为万亿富翁、买下选举、建造该死的数据中心。但跨越党派界限的美国大多数人的愤怒，可能很快会比这更深。他们正在全国各地的市政厅抗议数据中心。在全国范围的抗议活动中，数以百万计的人走上街头。在纽约和全国各地，他们正在投票中拒绝建制派候选人。

Something, it seems, is breaking. Something has to break. Believe Bernie Sanders? I just might.

看来，有什么东西正在破碎。有什么东西必须破碎。相信伯尼·桑德斯吗？我或许真的会相信。

This interview has been edited for length and clarity. （本文采访内容为篇幅和清晰度经过编辑。）

KATIE DRUMMOND: Senator Sanders, thank you so much for your time. 凯蒂·德拉蒙德（KATIE DRUMMOND）：桑德斯参议员，非常感谢您抽出时间。

BERNIE SANDERS: My pleasure. 伯尼·桑德斯：我的荣幸。

Wonderful. I want to start by talking about the sovereign wealth fund that you’ve proposed in the context of AI. Tell us how it would work. 太好了。我想先谈谈您在AI背景下提出的主权财富基金。请告诉我们它是如何运作的。

All right. I’m gonna get to that. 好的。我会谈到这一点。

Get to it. 请讲。

One second. I wanna back it up. What drove me to push for a moratorium on data centers and the sovereign wealth fund is the fact that, and I think most people know, AI is being pushed by the wealthiest people in the world, people like [Elon] Musk, and [Jeff] Bezos, and [Mark] Zuckerberg and those type of guys, and they could care less about the needs of ordinary people. 等一下。我想先回顾一下。促使我推动暂停数据中心建设和设立主权财富基金的原因在于——我想大多数人都知道——AI是由世界上最富有的人推动的，比如[埃隆]·马斯克、[杰夫]·贝索斯、[马克]·扎克伯格这类人，他们根本不在乎普通人的需求。

AI is the most consequential, transformational technology in the history of humanity, and it’s being pushed by guys who could care less, just wanna get richer and more powerful. That has got to stop. AI是人类历史上最具影响力和变革性的技术，但它却被那些根本不在乎、只想变得更富有、更有权势的人所推动。这种情况必须停止。

What has distressed me very much is, I looked all around me in Congress. You would think that with such a transformational technology that’s going to impact every aspect of their life, there’d be massive debates, right? This committee would be doing, “Oh my God, we got this legislation. What are we gonna … ?” Zero. Nothing. As of this date, as of today, there’s not been one significant piece of legislation dealing with AI. 让我非常苦恼的是，我环顾国会四周。你可能会认为，面对这样一种将影响人们生活方方面面的变革性技术，应该会有大规模的辩论，对吧？委员会应该会说：“天哪，我们有了这项立法。我们该怎么……”但结果是零。什么都没有。截至今日，还没有一项关于AI的重要立法。

So what did we do? We did two things. Number one, we said, Wait a minute. You’re building these data centers all over the country, and in fact, all over the world. They’re having a very negative impact on local environments, on electric costs, et cetera. Slow it down. Let’s make a moratorium, unless we start getting guidelines and legislation to protect ordinary people. 所以我们做了什么？我们做了两件事。第一，我们说，等一下。你们在全国各地，实际上是在全世界范围内建造这些数据中心。它们对当地环境、电力成本等产生了非常负面的影响。慢下来。让我们先暂停一下，除非我们开始制定保护普通人的指导方针和立法。

Second of all, we proposed an AI sovereign wealth fund. It does two things. First of all, most importantly, it says that on an issue of such transformational impact, you can’t let a handful of billionaires determine the future of humanity. The public has got to own half of these industries, meaning that half of the members of the board will be representatives of the public. What’s important is if there are ideas and proposals, or technology, that will lead to massive unemployment or endanger the well-being of kids or privacy rights, you are going to have half of that board say, “Sorry, bad idea. You can’t do it.” 第二，我们提出了一个AI主权财富基金。它有两层作用。首先，最重要的是，它表明在这样一个具有变革性影响的问题上，你不能让少数亿万富翁决定人类的未来。公众必须拥有这些行业的一半所有权，这意味着董事会中有一半成员将是公众代表。重要的是，如果有任何想法、提案或技术会导致大规模失业，或危及儿童福祉或隐私权，董事会中那一半代表就会说：“抱歉，这是个坏主意。你们不能这样做。”

And as AI, as I expect, becomes more and more lucrative, these guys make more and more money, that money should not just go to a handful of very wealthy people. 而且正如我所预料的那样，随着AI变得越来越赚钱，这些人赚的钱越来越多，这些钱不应该只流向少数非常富有的人。

What is the foundation of AI? What is it based on? It’s based on human knowledge, human work. You’ve written a book, they got it. You’ve written a poem, you’ve done some scientific work. AI的基础是什么？它基于什么？它基于人类的知识，人类的工作。你写了一本书，他们拿走了；你写了一首诗，你做了一些科学研究。

You’ve written for WIRED, they have that too. 你为《连线》写过文章，他们也拿走了。

That’s right. Exactly. And what compensation did you get for that? 没错。正是如此。那么你为此得到了什么报酬呢？

Our writers and our company and our publication received zero dol 我们的作者、我们的公司和我们的出版物得到了零美元。