AI Agents Are Hacking Systems. Could That Push the US and China to Cooperate?
AI Agents Are Hacking Systems. Could That Push the US and China to Cooperate?
AI 智能体正在入侵系统，这会促使美中两国展开合作吗？
The AI race has long been framed as a zero-sum game: Either the US or China will win in the end. But as concerns pile up around the increasing capabilities of AI models—especially AI agents—researchers in both countries are trying to team up to work on AI safety. This week, contributing editor Zoë Schiffer speaks with senior writer Will Knight about what he saw and heard on the ground when he visited China this summer—and why the two countries might actually need to start working together to avoid a major AI catastrophe. 长期以来，人工智能竞赛一直被视为一场零和博弈：最终要么是美国赢，要么是中国赢。但随着人们对人工智能模型（尤其是 AI 智能体）能力不断增强的担忧日益加剧，两国研究人员正试图联手致力于 AI 安全研究。本周，特约编辑 Zoë Schiffer 与资深撰稿人 Will Knight 进行了对话，探讨了他在今年夏天访问中国时的所见所闻，以及为什么两国可能真的需要开始合作，以避免一场重大的人工智能灾难。
Zoë Schiffer: This is WIRED’s Uncanny Valley. I’m Zoë Schiffer, contributing editor. If you’ve been following tech news this summer, and definitely if you’ve been listening to the show, you probably already know that China has been in the headlines quite a lot, particularly when it comes to the AI race. The country’s open models continue to close the gap with US frontier models at what some people estimate is a fraction of the cost. In turn, the US has maintained its tight restrictions on chips and export controls to slow down China’s rise. We think of AI advancement in so many ways as zero-sum, if China wins, the US loses, and vice versa. But there’s a concern that really stretches across those lines, and it’s about AI safety. Zoë Schiffer：这里是《连线》杂志的《恐怖谷》（Uncanny Valley）播客。我是特约编辑 Zoë Schiffer。如果你今年夏天一直在关注科技新闻，尤其是如果你一直在收听我们的节目，你可能已经知道中国在头条新闻中频频出现，特别是在人工智能竞赛方面。中国开源模型正以极低的成本（据估计仅为美国模型的一小部分）不断缩小与美国前沿模型之间的差距。作为回应，美国维持了严格的芯片限制和出口管制，以减缓中国的崛起。我们在许多方面将人工智能的进步视为零和博弈：如果中国赢了，美国就输了，反之亦然。但有一个担忧确实跨越了这些界限，那就是人工智能安全问题。
Archival audio: AI cybersecurity risks have been top of mind after multiple instances of AI agents from both OpenAI and Anthropic breaking out of their enclosures. 存档音频：在 OpenAI 和 Anthropic 的 AI 智能体多次发生“越狱”事件后，人工智能网络安全风险已成为人们关注的焦点。
Zoë Schiffer: News of AI agents hacking platforms added urgency to this issue over the summer. In turn, government officials have been forced to pay attention and act on AI regulation. Zoë Schiffer：今年夏天，关于 AI 智能体入侵平台的消息增加了这一问题的紧迫性。随之而来的是，政府官员被迫开始关注并采取行动，对人工智能进行监管。
Archival audio: President Trump has signed an executive order asking tech companies to give the government oversight of new AI models before their public release. 存档音频：特朗普总统签署了一项行政命令，要求科技公司在公开发布新的人工智能模型之前，必须接受政府的监督。
Zoë Schiffer: So, could the US and China actually benefit from working together? And what would it take to even make that happen? Earlier this summer, WIRED’s senior correspondent Will Knight visited China to get some answers. Will Knight, thank you so much for being here. Zoë Schiffer：那么，美中两国真的能从合作中受益吗？要实现这一点需要什么条件？今年夏天早些时候，WIRED 资深记者 Will Knight 访问了中国以寻求答案。Will Knight，非常感谢你来到这里。
Will Knight: Thanks for having me. Will Knight：谢谢邀请。
Zoë Schiffer: OK, so I want to start with your trip. You went to China earlier this summer, and at the time, we weren’t hearing as much about AI safety in the US. In fact, it felt like with Trump’s second term in the White House, it was like a the-US-needs-to-win framing, and AI safety almost started to sound like anti-growth. But I’m curious what you were hearing and seeing in China on the AI safety front. Zoë Schiffer：好的，我想从你的行程开始谈起。你今年夏天早些时候去了中国，当时我们在美国并没有听到太多关于 AI 安全的消息。事实上，感觉随着特朗普第二个任期的到来，舆论似乎更倾向于“美国必须赢”的框架，AI 安全甚至听起来有点像是在阻碍增长。但我很好奇，你在中国关于 AI 安全方面听到了什么、看到了什么？
Will Knight: Yeah, so going back maybe a year or six months, I’d noticed a lot more AI safety research coming out of China. And so, I went to this conference in Beijing, put on by one of the city-located labs that they have there. They have these ones in Beijing and Shanghai and elsewhere. And it turns out that AI safety was a really big theme. It’s very clear that it’s something that researchers are interested in. And actually, also just visiting labs and companies, the question of AI safety came up a lot. Will Knight：是的，回溯到六个月或一年前，我就注意到中国涌现出越来越多的 AI 安全研究。因此，我参加了在北京举行的一次会议，该会议由当地的一家实验室主办。他们在北京、上海等地都有类似的实验室。事实证明，AI 安全确实是一个非常重要的主题。很明显，这是研究人员非常感兴趣的领域。实际上，在走访实验室和公司时，AI 安全的问题也经常被提及。
Zoë Schiffer: Can I just ask, when they’re talking about AI safety, does it translate to guardrails? Because we also know that China has really gone all in on open models, which I mean, the whole thing is that people can download and tweak them and use them for whatever purposes they want. Zoë Schiffer：我可以问一下吗？当他们谈论 AI 安全时，这是否意味着“护栏”？因为我们也知道中国在开源模型上投入了巨大精力，我的意思是，开源的核心在于人们可以下载、调整并将其用于任何他们想要的目的。
Will Knight: Well, it’s not totally that simple because in China, for example, what your models can say is more controlled, and there are actually quite a lot of regulations around AI. So companies build these open models, but then anybody putting them on the internet has to be very careful about what they do. And then more recently, there’s been a huge interest in agents and things like OpenClaw. That’s been a really big theme. And one of the things that’s interesting to me, at least when it comes to contrasting AI in China and the US, is that people there seem less enamored with the idea of AGI and creating this digital god, are more like, how is this actually going to be useful and whether it’s you as a business person or an individual actually using it. So, a lot of people got very interested in, and it’s often the case in China, very rapidly adopted things like OpenClaw and then saw how it could go wrong. So there’s a lot of focus on How do we make these things reliable? Will Knight：嗯，事情没那么简单。例如在中国，模型能说什么受到更严格的控制，而且实际上围绕人工智能有相当多的法规。所以公司会构建这些开源模型，但任何将其发布到互联网上的人都必须非常谨慎。最近，人们对智能体（Agents）和像 OpenClaw 这样的项目产生了浓厚兴趣，这成了一个非常热门的话题。对我来说，在对比中美人工智能时，有一点很有趣：那里的人似乎对 AGI（通用人工智能）和创造“数字上帝”的想法没那么着迷，他们更关心的是：这东西到底有什么用？无论是作为商人还是个人用户，它如何产生实际价值？所以，很多人对此非常感兴趣，而且在中国通常的情况是，人们会非常迅速地采用像 OpenClaw 这样的技术，然后发现它可能会出错。因此，大家非常关注：我们如何让这些系统变得可靠？
Zoë Schiffer: Yeah, it makes sense. I mean, when you’re talking about China being more focused on economically useful models, that seems like a framework that does require a certain amount of stability, reliability, guardrails, safety. Whereas if you’re focused on reaching godlike intelligence, i.e. AGI, then maybe you’re more focused on just advancement at all costs. Zoë Schiffer：是的，这很有道理。我的意思是，当你提到中国更关注具有经济实用价值的模型时，这似乎是一个确实需要一定程度的稳定性、可靠性、护栏和安全性的框架。而如果你专注于实现神一般的智能，即 AGI，那么你可能更关注不惜一切代价追求进步。
Will Knight: Right, I think that’s right. The conference I went to, one of the themes was agentic safety. Given that we’re now seeing all these issues with AI agents hacking things, cybersecurity was a really major topic there. It seems people were worried about exactly the same thing as folks in the US. They’re worried about hackers misusing these things or about these systems running amok. Will Knight：没错，我认为是这样。我参加的那次会议，主题之一就是“智能体安全”。鉴于我们现在看到 AI 智能体入侵系统的各种问题，网络安全在那里是一个非常重大的议题。看起来，他们担心的事情与美国人担心的一模一样。他们担心黑客滥用这些技术，或者担心这些系统失控。