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What the US Movement Against Data Centers Can Learn From Abroad

Paris Marx’s new book couldn’t have landed at a better time. The longtime critic of Big Tech and host of the Tech Won’t Save Us podcast has been thinking about data centers for years, and Hyperscale: The Ambition and Excess of Big Tech’s Data Empires comes out right as opposition hits a fever pitch. “I certainly didn’t predict that it was all going to kind of come to a head as my book was coming out,” he says with a laugh.

帕里斯·马克斯（Paris Marx）的新书出版得正是时候。作为科技巨头的长期批评者和《科技不会拯救我们》（Tech Won’t Save Us）播客的主持人，他多年来一直在思考数据中心的问题。随着反对浪潮达到顶峰，他的新书《超大规模：科技巨头数据帝国的野心与过剩》（Hyperscale: The Ambition and Excess of Big Tech’s Data Empires）恰逢其时地问世了。他笑着说：“我确实没预料到，这一切会在我的书出版时集中爆发。”

While data centers are playing a role in shaping US elections—they’re one of the issues that could decide key midterm races in less than two weeks—there’s a history of struggle around the world. Marx’s book takes the reader on a tour of the tech industry’s quest for power and its opposition, from antiwar protests targeting American computers during the Vietnam War, to more recent resistance in Ireland and Chile, and an alternative vision for the future of data centers in New Zealand.

尽管数据中心正在影响美国的选举——它们是可能在不到两周内决定关键中期选举结果的问题之一——但世界各地早已存在相关的抗争历史。马克斯的书带领读者回顾了科技行业对权力的追求及其所遭遇的反对，从越南战争期间针对美国计算机的反战抗议，到近期在爱尔兰和智利的抵制活动，以及新西兰对数据中心未来的一种替代性愿景。

I caught up with him this week to talk about what he’s seen, and what could happen if the AI bubble pops. This interview has been edited and condensed for clarity. MOLLY TAFT: When did you decide to write a book about data centers? PARIS MARX: In the Netherlands and Singapore, they had moratoriums going back to 2019. But in 2022, there was a growing recognition of the demands of data centers in Ireland, on the energy grid in particular. There were huge quantities of electricity that data centers were starting to consume over there.

本周我采访了他，探讨了他的所见所闻，以及如果人工智能泡沫破裂可能会发生什么。为清晰起见，本次采访经过了编辑和删减。莫莉·塔夫特（MOLLY TAFT）：你是什么时候决定写一本关于数据中心的书的？帕里斯·马克斯（PARIS MARX）：荷兰和新加坡早在2019年就开始实施暂停令。但在2022年，人们越来越意识到数据中心对爱尔兰的需求，特别是在能源电网方面。当时，数据中心在那里的耗电量已经非常巨大。

The other story that really got on my radar was what happened with Google in The Dalles, Oregon. Google was really trying to hide its water use figures, to the degree that it got the city council to try to keep its water use figures secret. They kept that going for the better part of a year before the community finally got the actual numbers and found out that Google was using 29 percent of the water in the community.

另一个引起我注意的故事是谷歌在俄勒冈州达尔斯市（The Dalles）的所作所为。谷歌极力试图隐瞒其用水数据，甚至让市议会试图将这些数据保密。这种情况持续了近一年，社区最终才获得了真实数据，并发现谷歌消耗了该社区29%的水资源。

ChatGPT came out at the end of 2022. It became apparent that there’s going to need to be a lot more data centers for generative AI. These places were already feeling the effects of significant data center construction, and it felt like that was going to start coming to a lot more communities very soon.

ChatGPT于2022年底发布。显而易见，生成式人工智能将需要更多的数据中心。这些地方已经感受到了大规模数据中心建设带来的影响，而且感觉这种建设很快就会波及更多的社区。

I feel like a lot of Americans think data centers just came out of the blue in the US over the past year or two, just in time to be this huge midterms issue. One thing I like about your book is that it shows us how other countries and communities served as early warning signs. Ireland was a real example of what can happen. Dublin had a moratorium passed back in 2021. It was actually the grid operator that said, “Hey, there are too many data centers. We do not have the grid capacity to connect any more of them.”

我觉得很多美国人认为数据中心是过去一两年才在美国突然出现的，刚好赶上成为中期选举的一个重大议题。我很喜欢你书中的一点，即它向我们展示了其他国家和社区是如何作为早期预警信号的。爱尔兰就是一个真实的例子。都柏林早在2021年就通过了暂停令。实际上是电网运营商说：“嘿，数据中心太多了。我们没有足够的电网容量来连接更多的中心了。”

In response to that, you had the industry moving to make sure it can still build data centers in Ireland. They can’t get grid connections in Dublin, so they start looking at building in other parts of Ireland. They also looked at starting to tap into the gas network so they can use generators. Eventually, they start building dedicated gas power plants to power their data centers instead of connecting to the grid.

作为回应，该行业采取行动以确保仍能在爱尔兰建设数据中心。由于在都柏林无法获得电网连接，他们开始考虑在爱尔兰的其他地区建设。他们还开始寻求接入天然气网络，以便使用发电机。最终，他们开始建造专门的天然气发电厂来为数据中心供电，而不是连接到电网。

The Irish energy grid is a public grid—only the public utility can build electricity lines. And data center companies actually lobbied for legislation that essentially allows private companies to build electricity cables. That obviously concerns a lot of people and presents questions about equity in the system.

爱尔兰的能源电网是公共电网——只有公用事业部门才能铺设输电线路。而数据中心公司竟然游说通过立法，实质上允许私营公司铺设电力电缆。这显然引起了许多人的担忧，并引发了关于系统公平性的质疑。

The gas stuff looks so prescient with what’s happening in the US now, where companies are racing to build these massive private gas power plants for data centers. [Data center operators] were getting these emission licenses from the Irish Environmental Protection Agency to be able to burn all these fossil fuels. The agency was warning that climate targets are going to be a lot harder to achieve now.

天然气的问题与美国目前发生的情况如出一辙，企业正竞相为数据中心建设这些庞大的私人天然气发电厂。[数据中心运营商]从爱尔兰环境保护局获得了排放许可证，以便能够燃烧所有这些化石燃料。该机构警告称，现在实现气候目标将变得更加困难。

When I started to see that happen in the US, I wasn’t surprised. I’d already seen the story play out before. But the scale of it is staggering, and how quickly it’s escalated. What happens to the physical infrastructure—from the gas plants to the data centers themselves—that’s getting built out if this industry falls apart? Is there historic precedent for that?

当我开始看到这种情况在美国发生时，我并不感到惊讶。我之前已经见过这个剧本上演了。但其规模之大令人震惊，而且升级速度之快也令人咋舌。如果这个行业崩溃了，那些正在建设的物理基础设施——从天然气厂到数据中心本身——会怎样？这有历史先例吗？

I think we’re in an AI bubble. But what does the collapse of that bubble look like? They’re planning to add all these data centers and all of these gas power plants in order to power the data centers. But there are issues with getting turbines, with getting chips, with getting different kinds of pieces of the puzzle for the data center itself. Are these even going to get built out before there’s a reassessment of the demand for AI?

我认为我们正处于人工智能泡沫之中。但泡沫破裂会是什么样子？他们计划增加所有这些数据中心和天然气发电厂来为数据中心供电。但在获取涡轮机、芯片以及数据中心所需的各种组件方面都存在问题。在对人工智能需求进行重新评估之前，这些设施真的能建成吗？

We often talk about the excess build-out of fiber capacity back in the dotcom boom and bust. But there was also a build-out of data centers—obviously a much earlier stage than what we’re at now. A lot of data center companies went under. Companies like Equinix, which did survive, bought up a ton of data centers to be ready for when that capacity returned.

我们经常谈论互联网泡沫时期光纤容量的过度建设。但当时也存在数据中心的建设——显然比我们现在所处的阶段要早得多。许多数据中心公司倒闭了。像Equinix这样幸存下来的公司收购了大量数据中心，为容量需求回升做好准备。

But the issue we have now is that if data centers are being planned for AI use, and we’re operating under the assumption that the chips are going to have to be cycled out within a few years. Even if the data center is there, what makes it most valuable is potentially not going to be useful by the time that demand returns.

但我们现在面临的问题是，如果数据中心是为人工智能用途而规划的，而我们又假设芯片必须在几年内更换。即使数据中心还在，其最有价值的部分在需求回升时可能已经不再有用了。

Inevitably, even if the data centers don’t come, then those gas plants will exist. They will be looking for new customers to justify their existence. I’m sure that people are not building them with the intention to just shut them down.

不可避免的是，即使数据中心没有建成，那些天然气发电厂也会存在。他们将寻找新的客户来证明其存在的合理性。我相信人们建造它们的目的绝不是为了将其关闭。

You ended the book with a specific example in New Zealand of a community-led effort to create a more accurate speech-recognition model of the Māori language, using local cloud providers to host the data. I really liked this alternative vision of a non-extractive way to harness the powers of AI. Have you thought about what we could do to make some changes and how this build-out is going? I would like to see governments go really hard on actu

你在书的结尾提到了新西兰的一个具体例子：一个由社区主导的项目，旨在利用本地云服务提供商托管数据，从而创建更准确的毛利语语音识别模型。我非常喜欢这种利用人工智能力量的非掠夺性替代愿景。你是否思考过我们可以做些什么来做出改变，以及这种建设过程该如何进行？我希望看到政府在……方面采取强硬措施。